Murder Lake Episode 2

Paul Hartman

In July of 2017, the sheriff’s office announced an undetermined autopsy and claimed the blood in his office and car were linked to Bryon Macron alone. It seems that no one who was close to Bryon agrees with the sheriff’s claim and many continue to search for answers. In this podcast, Victoria Macron (spouse) with clearance from her lawyer has granted us an exclusive 4.5-hour interview along with her retired criminal investigator who has uncovered not only the murder but is also close to solving the case. 

Victoria Macron with husband Bryon Macron

Note: I am trying to include the actual transcript here but it needs to be cleaned up some. Hopefully I can get that done soon.

Rick:

We are back with another episode of the invisible ships podcast and today show is one that people have been waiting for for a very long time we’re staying with the Bryon Macron story, but this is a big one.

This episode is huge because we have not one but two extremely important guests join us on the show. One will be a highly decorated, retired federal, a enforcement officer who spent the last several years investigating the murder of Layfette Township Trustee, Bryon Macron. There’s no question: It will be thought on at all, he’s been doing a lot of digging he’s Ruffeling a lot of feathers along the way, but that’s how you get stuff done. His name is inspector Paul Hartman. We also have- and I think, she’s the one that you guys really want to hear from today- a very brave woman, Victoria Macron, who has been waiting this at tin, one woman campaign to find out the truth of what really happened to Bryon Macron.

Don’t trust anything of what’s been going on after Bryon’s body was discovered in Chippewa Lake.

Dan:

dark clouds seemed to settle over Medina County, but those of us who lived here there was a strange feeling around the entire incident. When the questions seemed to pile up like snow, today is a day that we’re going to be getting the answers to some of those questions, because we’re about to play for you, the first part of the Victoria Macron interview and we’re going to gain so much insight from her story, and it’s it’s amazing how brave she was and how much access she gave us and how much information she gave us and before we go on and play the interview. I do want to tell you guys why this is so important, and this is so important, because this case is still unsolved, the the more audience that we give her the more we share this interview, the bigger the platform that we build for Mrs. Macron and her family, and that’s going to do one or two things: one. It’s going to force the hand of the local politicians and law enforcement to revisit this case to to go over with a fine tooth comb to look at everything. It’s also going to jog the memory of people like n. We are literally getting contacted from people all over the place.

People are coming out of the woodwork they’re, remembering things they thought were totally innocent at the time. I was just going to mention that one another reason why we are actively trying to get this story out there to as many people as possible is we’re getting tips now and one is going to actually show up in a upcoming episode. We have an interview with someone that you’re going to hear mentioned in is interview today and we’re not going to give it away yet, but it could change the case. I mean his could blow the doors off if om stuff. So that’s, why, like I said it’s important, we are not trying to be self serving .

We don’t really care about the podcast beyond the fact that we just enjoy making them. It’s a hobby for us honestly. We do on the side, but we’re asking you guys- and we never do this to please share this- subscribe- give us five stars on Itunes, because that’s going to tell the algorithms over there to recommend it and, like I said, we just want as many people as possible to hear this because we’re hoping to bring in national attention to this case, and you know, speaking of Algorithms, they always tell you on Podcasts. Oh, please leave a comment. ‘CAUSE That shows that people like us or whatever, and we would like that, but also, if you have a tip, leave a comment on itunes. After you rate US ’cause that I super helpful and like Ricq UASTSAYING, like invisible shits at this point, it’s just three guys that have an interest in in this we’re, not experts, we’re not pretending to be investigators, we’re just talking to people, but along those lines. You know the three of us have different ideas on certain aspects of the case. We don’t know what happened. That’s the point of all this, but when you hear in the interview is the subjects of the interview is opinions. Those are not necessarily our opinions, we’re not making any allegations and in the United States, you’re innocent until proven guilty.

So we are going to share all the information that we have. This is going to be an unedited interview, yeah, and that was a big decision that we decided to go. So when you hear the interview honestly, some of the audio quality isn’t invisible ship standards. What we did is the three way phone call yeah. So as a like, a conference call between our invisible shipmake Darin, former federal investigator Paul Hartman and Brian’s widow Victoria mackren, you going to have to forgive some of the quality. There’s some background noise. I couldn’t clean it up.

I did T, and I made the choice- that the interview was too important. The insight and the information that Youll gain from listening to it is too important. Tha. I don’t want to destroy Y N, we’re just trying to give you the facts. You make up your own mind and I want to make a point of a reason that we’re doing this is one of the accusations that you will hear here. Um will be maybe not refuted but kind of argued in a different way in an upcoming episode. So in any kind of scenario like this, especially four years later, there’s going to be lots of different things going around and that’s why me personally, even if you might hear it some disparagement of local law enforcement authorities, you know it’s hard until you’re in their shoes to know what they’re doing with so we’re just let ou KINDOF. Let everybody hear this and you know we would be more than willing to hear from the Sheri’s department. I know we’ve reached out to Mr Sandford. Who’s retired toll hear about him, so we we definitely don’t want to run anybody off the road or railroadevanybody we’re talking and we’re reathing.

Now to just about everyone that comes up so, hopefully we will be getting hearing back from some of these people, but I guess it’s probably time just to roll of the interview. The interview is Olte wrough for the first half hour, and then it gets a lot better. We just have some interference really on so hang in there. It gets better as Marijuan got me. I got you now. Let me just do the my magic and bring in Victoria here all right. Victori are you here? Yes, I’m here tar you there, I’m here Alligh, so I guess I have successfully dupton one of these irinsine things and connected three of US cool. So it’s happening here now. This is this: Is Victoria Makron on the line? Just so you know how are you he I’m good Victoria? How are you thank Yo, good, all right, so we’re putting together a podcast and I’ve had an interest in your husband’s disappearance and murder and we’re looking to you know wherwhere’s awareness about it. So I really appreciate You putting aside the time here to talk to us today.

Victoria:

Oh my God, you don’t know, I’m so glad, I’m so grateful.

Darren:

Thank you, I’m so sorry for everything that you’ve been through. I cant even imagine. I’ve got some questions for Yau Um, so so t’s tof that we don’t know Um. Can you describe like the night that so obviously he went out? You know Brian went out to a get together over at . The winking Lizard. Is that right?

Victoria:

correct and that was in Brunswick, and it was for a get together for Christmas for township officials and whoever worked in Layette O. There were some other like the local prosecutor and the county commissioners were invited as well Oky.

Darren:

What? What time do you remember like roughly like what time that party was going from ?

Victoria:

I don’t. I I’m trying to think Um I had to. I was going to attend with my husband, but my youngest daughter had had a roken foot and the boot was coming off and she had to go to a physical therapy, her first appointment that night, okay, that was, I had to go to that meeting an trive oclock.

I believe the Christmas party started, maybe around six, okay and and then he from there went and saw a movie right afterwards , they went to see star wars Um. I was part of that and I hadn’t heard from him till one of the township, the other township trustee had messaged me and th wasoothat message because it never came through as a text message. It came Through His Messenger and I didn’t see it till the next morning, because I was asking that I was asking Brian. What time are you guys going up w? When are you eating and that’s when I didn’t see the message Till that morning, so I was at home,

Darren:

okay, so then he went and saw the movie with Costello.

Victoria:

He yeah he apparently went with Castello okay.

Darren:

Did he go with anybody else, No I don’t know of anyone else.

Paul:

Can I correct you there just for a moment yeah. There was some preliminary indication that bowers was there as well yeah.

Victoria:

I found that out later because a friend of our from high school, his sister, saw that Linda bowers had posted something on Facebook about the movie nenonce to Mei, didn’t know. If she, I can’t say for sure if she was there, but there was reference to it through a Facebook message that he had commented on okay m.

Darren:

So what what was Brian’s relationship to the best of your knowledge with Costello and bowers like did he How did he like working with them?

Victoria:

It was, I mean it was friendly Um because they had to work together, but there were. There were situations that . You know. Brian Brian spoke, the Truth , you know he’s here, To serve the residence and let’s have an open line. – and there were numerous ties where

maybe at a trusty meeting Linda, was offended at what he would say. I can’t believe you just said that on the record. He knows why, like so what? Let’s speak the truth here Um, so there were times when they would have to vote on something and he would come home from a trusty meeting and say: Oh, I see how the meeting go. He goes good but Lyndis mad at me again, and I said why would she be mad at you and he said? Well, she didn’t like the way I voted.

Darren:

Okay, yeah, he seems like an outspoken trustee. Does that sound Kinda like him, MHM, okay,

Victoria:

Yeah, Bryon, wasn’t a puppet ? He didn’t want to do what Everybody else wanted to do. He wanted to do what was right was right

sometimes too, you know you have a resident that would be upset, they might come into the meeting Um and he’s like you know, maybe I didn’t see things your way. I had my view of what they were trying to address at the meeting and he said after listening to the resident, I could see their point, but by giving them the chance to listen, it may have changed his mind. Like Hey, you know what you got avail a point here, let’s see how we can wok this out, so we always gave he resident the benefit like.

Let me hear you out you, your Scenario, give me a reason what you know Um and then Castello he he would come to Brian a lot and say you know ’cause. He was also a Firefighter

yeah. I saw that yeah he’s a firefighter for the township and he works as a relator for Lynda as well under her Pro-edge reality.

Darren:

Okay, so would you say Costello and bowers were kind of a lot more together and brain was like the Odd-man out?

Victoria

a lot of times when it came to different things, and only because Brian was firm on some

beliefs. That you know that they were, and Brian wasn’t going to be a puppet, and I know I he had said before- that yeah definitely Mike Costello Is Lyndia’s puppet she likes Mike because he does what Linda wants

Darren

outside of the trustee relationship. How did he like Mike? How did your husband and Castello get along? Were they friends? Did they do anything Like to go to a movie? was that like an unusual thing or

Victoria:

yes, yes, yeah? I thought that was weird, that I was going to go with them and I never heard from them or here Bryant, that his phone had died at the movie and Castello texted me, and, let me know, while he sent a message through Facebook messanger and at the time I couldn’t get messenger, wouldn’t come up as a message on my phone. It would only. I could only see if you go into Facebook . I would never got an alert. I had no idea and I hadtet crying a couple times saying: Hey you know, am I going to come up thor what’s going on and never heard anything, I had asked him to stop on the way home if he could get money out of the bank, because my daughter was going to go to breakfast before finals that morning to bring a couple bucks home for her s to go in the morning. Okay, so, but Um work. No, we we, he didn’t do anything.

There was one instance after a commissioners meeting that we attended and we all went up, Um and just hung out after it one of the local eateries and got something to eat after, but that was really the only time to did. He hang out with him. No O. It was not something common, IC,

Paul:

Can I, just step in here her a moment, and that is the the FACEBOOK MESSENGER application. It is going to be Real, interesting and you’ll see a connection as this goes down the road, but take note of that yeah I read the PA. I know you hoot that on the blague okay, so you understand it. Yes, I

understand that part Um and h yeah, I’m with you on that M good. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you victoria.

Victoria:

Oh No! You you’re aren’t,

Darren:

so, okay, so he he comes home and you’re. Probably thinking like where were Yo, you know.

Victoria:

‘CAUSE! I didn’t know he was going with anybody, but I knew he was going to the movie Mhm and he did he got home. I said, oh, how was —, so why didn’t you message me ? My phone Died didn’t Mike Message You? and I said no

didn’t know because, like I said, Facebook Messenger . I’m trying to think Messenger. Now, there’s an at for the phone no dife than now. To tell me like I got them. I was Ol on. I never went into message to look to see. Ruh Umand, then he plugged his phone when he got home and it was around Christmas. We had to Elf on the shelf he’s like. Oh did you put the elf on the shelf out and I said no not yet, and then he went over to the sink and he’s like hey, there’s chicken tenders in the sink that were defrosting. I took those out, he goes well, don’t you want to make those ’cause? He knows. I always make my kids, these chicken wraps for their lunches and he’s like. Don’t you want to cook these? I said Yeah

. Actually I will put ’em in so I put Hem in the oven. I don’t know they cook, for maybe twenty minutes half hour and that time we did the Elf on the shelf for our youngest and we went to bed

around two am. He got a message on his phone . Yes, and I remember he had the Sam Sung Edge, it was a newer phone in it like has where it extends the glass down into the side s. You can see like if it’s laying on a flat surface, you can see like a message come through. I remember seeing a Light, I don’t know if there was necessarily a message what but I now looking back Paul said at Two am. So we went to bed, it was prie shortly after one and I remember seeing a light, so it like lit up the side of the room where he lays on that side of the bed mh and it lit up, and I remember seeing him get off. I remember seeing him standing there, but then from that I don’t know because I just figured Oh, is he going the bathroom

captain senter made a statement during the icontreobecause Anfrendor, something that vitoria knew where he was going?

I said I didn’t know where I did. I didn’t know he was going anywhere him get up. It was at the side of the bed and I think at that time I was like I dfom. I never saw me the room, I am Sawan. I just saw him get up. That was it OK, so he said O ya. I he never talked to me so how cal he make that statement. That’s that’s a very good question. You know I can let me just step in here for a moment. If I can again Victoria, please forgive me for adding side notes here. Yet theyare quote a quite PRESSD conference. If you see that and ou you can find that on you toob actually ouand Um according to Setner, who, quite frankly, doesta nose, askrim a hole in the ground. U Never Talk to me about anything and then he’s going to make a stepness. Thati Bryin got up and I knew where he was going. I didn’t know wherere He’as going.

I didn’t even talk to him. Saidthe Ady, fil, Hunee, Hin, get up e Boe saw looking back was, was he going the bathroom? I don’t know I conut it’s like you ace, conscious, like you kind of wake up, you see it and you cust go back to sleep. I didn’t think I’. Even of it he got up and went to the bathroom frequently yeah. No, I think that’s you know, like I sai. I mean with M my wife, you know. If I get up, you know she doesn’t know where I’m going to go, I could have gone and left and she wouldn’t have known. You know. I can’t understand what you’re saying like we always Lok with a downcomforter hunter bed and he was morethewarm bloode yeah t overheated, so in his mthe heater o the vent was on his hide the bed, so we’d always get the heat right away, but Um sometimes he would even go down and like lay on the couch in the basement like to cool off or if he knew he had to travel in the morning, t touch an early flight he’s like I was asleep in the basement S. I don’t wake all of you guys up trying to get out whatever in the morning so m. sometimes he would do that. No, I didn’t like I said I didn’t think anything of it. It wasn’t unusual, you don’t think you’re going to wake up in the morning and your husband’s missing. I know no IA, no so you’re GOIN HA in o point you if I can, and that is that at the cotical press conference, Um sent a claim that Brian left home at one thirty in the morning, which is clearly deceated by the fact that Braan was home in bed at one thirty and actually ae see that that message actualae the morning which ultimately tigger him to leave the house- that’s theyeah yeah. So so you wake up. Um realize that Brian’s not there and he was supposed to be there in the morning. I think it right realize he wasn’t here I mean I know he wasn’t next to me an bed but ijust got up like any other day and I got ready for work. I was good ready for work and UM. I get to work and my daughter calls me and she’s like ’cause. I knew what he had to go to a meeting. He said I have to go to a meeting in the morning, so he asked Alex our oldest to take Nia, our youngest to school. I didn’t, I thought, meeding. Okay, IT’S FOR JEWELRY CAUSE! That’s the Business Ein and a lot of times he’d go out lass. I knew he was going to go to the guy in Worcester M Kat. What is it Yis? It CGRANDA? Yes, Cakaday Yeah Megerd, so he had a stor. looster am good friends, good good client, ofbrian’s Um, and he would go out there and parioccally like talk to the whole staff, and he said he was waiting on, bind aon talk to him and what I thought he said. I have a meeting and that’s what I thought so I didn’t think anything of it in the morning. You know when you get off your faingyou’re okay. Well, I got to work in Alex called and she said mind. Do you know where Dad is? I said Ni. I said at a meeting and she’s like Shd. I said she says: Well, they can’t find him. I go who what are you talking about? She said to Shareif ar here to they’re ge’re at your Hihe Moseur Fetchyour House, yeah ogod. She said this hars for he thor looking for that. So we’ll wait a minute. She goes or remember. I have to take me at of school, I said well last. I knew he had a kneeting Mgeso that I’m like Alex go down the basement. I siggled own the gate that look on the couch, no he’s out there, she’s walking around the house, not when she comes out. She sank. They’re already in our house inside, like in a kitchen, agree sther and they open the door and let themselves in youthing Er someone Woinso E, O O. I believe they did OUTALEC had come see come here. Like I don’t know, I believe she may have let them in the front foyer area and when she came upstairs she goes no. They were in the kitchen and they were looking around like and then Jim Sanford, who grind rode, frequently wit. That’s his right along he’d, always go with. He was walking out. ATWIC was following. He was walking out towards the front ’cause. She was like dirupting them out and she said she I sould go and open the door to the garage is his car in there and she’s, lno and Jim said. I already looked in her ww, so so this the sergeant, Sanford Um, that’s, come up a couple of different times. I’ve I’ve looked into so that was that was Brian’s main right along, but then he retired within, like at the end of the year right he retired, to gay byinessing yeah. So was that a planned retirement that he did? Everybody know that he was retiring. I don’t know okay Wul, they werepurni think. I have so many notes too, that I was taking noteshistwo weeks then for retirement and it was going to be at the end of the Mon. THAT’S THATS! That’s what I could find, but I mean hat doesn’t mean it’s true, but I I found that it was the thirty first s o six December. Thirty, first of SE, en it was, I pretty sure, that’s what it was AI interget here. I think that at least the Cino understanding is that he put in his retirement papers on the date that thise hads occurred, Oky, which would make sense Fer rente two weeks to be the end of the Yela yeah and and then looking back ’cause. I told Alexokan when we when he came home that night my car was in the Garage Alex, had pulled Hal car in the garage and then glion’s car was in the drid behind hose. So he w he was a curse. One out, then, if he usually bra always culled te grade, Alexs was intrige. Ok, U Everybody Got Al Anhe got home from. I work switch Colsso. I like they said. Why did look in the Gra? Didn’t you notice his car was gone? Well then it occurred to me he poked outside that night. Okay, she said I he woas Laughan Home Couse, O the movie Mhm Yeah Yeah, O Sol Um. That’s interesting! Sergeant Sanford was at Your House thoday that he went missing Um, you know and he was the one on’. ONET get too far ahead: Um welllet’s ogoe back to Sanford. So, okay, so you got notified at work. Um and then did you immediately leave work? Then? Oh, my God, heave gone outright. WHEREDID YOU GO II said I dropped my stuff. It was like eight. Oh Five on II got I just like I just waghed, I just I gotta go and my supervisor was like what is wrong Igo. My husband is in thisting and she’s like, Oh, my God. What like everyone was like. What what are you talking? It’s like and I try calling him and then she’s like you, can’t drive, you can’t drive and I’m like a just take me. Take me I’ out of the home, so we get in the car. Well, I could barely walk down the steps to work. It was like you know when you’re walking and it’s Liht Yolike, you c you can’t, even if you like, you’re going nowhere, it was like it was like his. I can’t even explain it and he waid some walking down the stairs Bakstea GN. She gets me to her car and she kicks me. Wait a minut wait. I had matty square she’s having breakfast, I got ta get her, so she stopped the car quick and I jumped out together ’cause she was having breakfast with girlfriends Ma. We gotto. We got to go Tanaho he’s issing, she said B. Like no one knows it’s like just you can’t even we get in the car and Wan a takes me to my house and when we get there, seein forts standing in my Fik in front of the garage was shut and he’s standing in front of the garage with Linda Bouers and he’s standing like it like at attention with his arms crossed behind his back so stolic and I’m like he knows me like he knows, he’s been to our house for dinner, like on shift. He come by Savin possibov coming over and eat and I said he’s standing outside so stoic. I go up til. I go gym Jim it her spryand. If you hurt fom Bryan, and he goes, I don’t know, and he just like shook his head. Liside aside, I so what do you mean? What do you mean? Haven’t you topped Te? Pian said I don’t know, I don’t know where he is lo cold, so and LEDA after they’re in my house, walking in and around my house and the T and then they’re standing outtigh like they’ve never been inside. It is kind O likt and I didn’t know this till after I talked to Alexan. It kind of really upset me that I would definitely be upset on that, like dull, in like nohi yeah, so cold, so cold Nda same with Linda I te window as ther Costello was not you’re, saying that you can recall ’cause. I mean obviously a trust me. I’ve been through traumatic things as well, and when everything happens, you know you got punnel vision too. You know, but Toyour Bestknowledge, you didn’t see, Custallo, remember, Casello being there. It was just Linda in San Ferd. Don’t believe Castella was here. No, there was other. There was other deputies here at that point. People started flowing in, like my mom Kame, my sister Cam Um Ilet me think. Do you remember the name of that Guy Paul? Who Was it to talk to me briefly? I must at twenty thirty people in my house at this point. When were got o people were coming over in my family meand one of the deputies came. What was that not Ross? One of them came in and sat down with me for, like maybe for minutes, five minutes. How were you Abrian hows your relationship? Did you have an argument? I’m like now? No, I said we had. I mean we had arguments. Is this an argument? No, I mean I do’t knowwhat, I mean I know they have to ask that that was basically the briefh little bit of like that. I’ve ever talked to them y. So did they interview? They didn’t interview any further than that day that five minutes sit down in your kitchen, O wow, no yeah, okay Y. AH, no, they never. They never even interviewed my oldest daughter Alex who, on this was Friday and Tuesday. She was going to her orientation at Ohio State. She was transferring from Ou to Ohio, state, Anne Bride and her drove down the morning of Turesday drove down and drow all the way back. They had good conversation. She said he was on the phone with one of the somebody from the sheerest department talking about jewelery and selling jewelery to them. Sh galax said it was the sheriff so who that was, I’m not sure. Og, but she said Yeh de talk to him on the way home they never. They never interviewed my daughter to say you know. How was your dad? What d you guys talk about? You know nothing. They never interviewed one of my family members, ell. Okay, I mean D, You would think you know. I mean you know Y. obviously you know like H, you know if you watch any dateline, you know they’l always say like the first. You know the people closest are the ones you want to get all that reason Forwa. Yes, you always want to ask the mpy Hurst Yeah Okad, never, except for that those few minutes in my morning, room and then later that day, okay, so the Gui that came and talked to me, he had me fill out it’s like a half sheet of paper and it had like a carmonless copy in Thehmso. He fills us out he ays well. This is for briant’s cellphone the model of a cellphone, so we can have access to it now. This was probably nine nine thirty in the morning somewhere around there, and so I signed it. He gave me a copy of it. They eave I’m gonhlet me step in here for a moment. That was your consent to to h, accept thephone, but they have already searched the phone. Yes ’cause they had the phone ’cause. It was in the office right, Oh, they had the phone and everyone was touching that phon they never sent it for forensics. They never. As far as I know they never at that point they were already accessing it or theyt even did any fingerprints or anything Bu, okay M, because tought he told me that Li hours tipped up the phone and was like touching it, because it was on the desk where the Secretary Sits: Huh, okay, but most of the like, as far as it being the crime scene. Most of that was in his office or was it throughout the whole place? You know it’s not hectically an office, it was a back room like umit. Was a conference room? Okay, that’s where that’s where this to Litli Yeah, O God, so ith a back conferent irl and they said there was aeither it stillinfuriates me. It still infurites me because theythey let people come up there. Linda bowers was up there. MYK CASTELLO was up there, the maintenance guy walked in on it. He was up there. They were walking around that whole place. Everybody might saw the sea, the maintenance ky apparently walked in, saw the scene and that’s the one who reported it right. The maintenanceer doing owho reported Asfar, as I know, yeah. That’s who called it it. He called, I believe he called Sanford Furst Okynwhy Sanford. Why not just calling to the sheriff? why O nine, what non yeah? So what so? What’s well at’, I think hit’s a good time to go to Sanford, so so Sanford was. You would consider a friend of Brian Right, ybut, then, as soon as this happened, what was your so obviously you had the encounter where it was very stoic did not offer any achletes didn’t seem to really give you any information and then he put in his twowignotice that day. What’s what when’s the last time you’ve talked to him, I have so not since the day in the driveway there was no otheri tried calling him. He came. Howhen they had me sign that form at the Househm I at happy of it, so they all left and ifriend. He actually came and said he’s I his children and he’s plice officer he’ The PLAC e Tamavel he came and sell with my family t got knowing what his was. We were worried. Um. I think I kept my winon jacket affer two days waiting to get a call, TA, Tirch and Um Tarry came and sat with us the entire day. I’m just, I think, is like comfort and protection. Thatyou know I’m going to sit with your family because you don’t know what’s going on, so he sact her and I think that he showd up after this other incident, I’m getting Ahoud of myself but okay, so jim had called me after I sign at consenting Jim had called me and said we need you to come or I need to come by the house and you need to sign another form to take his laptop, his small laptop that he traveled with. I said: Ok, I said in the meantime, as I’m waiting for him to come. I got on the phone right away, M and Al the FBI, and I said someone has got to help me. I don’t know what is going on, but I said I’. I don’t know what to do and I Gav the people o get touch a talk to someone and then my brother in laws, my sister in law wig. Just I let me think at husband, work, Hi Otes, he worked Ho said: Bitian H, yeah. He knew Somebod, he was an attorney, but he knew someone that Wook for BC. I and he’s like Um, just let DC I handle this. You know I’m like I don’t know what to do. I don’t know if I want to talk to them. I don’t trust them. I don’t know what’s going on. I don’t trust anybody here and so your hunch at this very beginning part, was it wat something to do with either the the township or the SHERF soffice or what Yahyes somebody something or I didn’t know even the pipeline, or this is were the nexest playline which I’ve I’ve gotten my notes Toso something possibl, but not something to do with like his business as a jeweller n hour. His past experience as a marine. Those things not even arestaceeling. No, nothing like that something more with something local is is where te were eting local because of the way that they were handling it like it felt lihefelt like it felt like I’ as much as like JI has been around and he was enly Witho. All of I ds like this, so so to offer nothing and no condolence, I mean who even guess how can you have that in your conscience to even not offer something like it’s just it just fel Weir, I’m going to tell you Sol. We O was to his birthday party OU OATA IT s. It was like W has a side out here. This guy stand forever, went to the wake or the funeral service. Okay, did the trustees go to the the tervitionwenot invited? Ok, because Linda Linda is all about unotoriety and how Shecan, even in the even in all of this Linda, will insert herself at ry along lit so helpfull and she um she wants notariety Ogon. She adaptsyeah that’s how I thawit yea in a defi. First, I kept her. You know they say Umkeep, your friends close, but your enemy’s, closer p you and I started like I was. I would message her to see I like well, she would know she noped everything. SOMO was keeping her Po, say Hotwal, I gotta know if she knows, or his cok noke tack to town all the time, so I stood doing that, but that I’m, like you, know what I don’t even trust her. I completely shut myself off from all of them. So in the midst of I was Gong to I before the Cole Ouf the eye got that Olrom JEM. He needs to come by to have me Sinus, for so he comes, and then I call the F Bi when he’s on teiilver and II. Let him in- and I said M he’s like why I have this Fon Esect Migt, for you to sign and I said, and he was going to start talking to me N. I said you know what let me tell you something I said Brian did everything he could for this township, and I said I’m not talking to you, I’m not telling you anything. I said I don’t trust you and he’s like. I just want you to know that she said something and I I didn’t it was like like that. CUNNEL Visiot, like you can’t you see em talking, but I can’t even ’cause. I didn’t care what he was saying at the pot at time is so a imand he’s like Um Lyou need to sign this, and I said you know what I said: I’m not finding anything. I S, I’m not saying I won’t sign it, but Sall. I have somebody or an attorney telling me you know representing me. I said I’m not doing anything. ’cause, I don’t trust any of you, okay n. This was how soon like so the sixteenth es y about ten thirty Elavenash Mabehi as on the sixteenth, or this is a later date. This is on the sixteent on the sixtiieth bcause. He wanted me to come and sign this other form and he says oh by the way he says. Tyou do you have tha other form that you sig earlier her t h, that was, it was hee, said: Yeahi Gat. I see it. I said Chirst. He starts. Writing the sterial number down on a Brian’s phone and I’m like waitand. I pull it away from him. I said you already have a copy of this. I said you’re not happying this again on this one have a ha side. I cudo Ha ta tapy tat to Te Fall. I sugesthis is how sady the investing it’s like. Why are you starting to waite this Dow and you already have a copy of it? I said you came here for me to find for the computer yeah I didnt Yoen to esign in the form for the phone. I said now, you’re taking the cerial number doubt for this. I said no, I soaid get it on the other form. A it just made me feel uneasy, like wait, a minute they’re supposed to have this copy to search the phone and now he’s Kot out on this new F, which was like a whole like opoksized piece of paper and the other Thal was only half, so I don’t know what they did with that sabcause. They couldn’t even keep the paper. Well, quite yeah. Well, what did he say whenever you know you SA ID li? That form was already tecul. I’M NOT SAYING I won’t SID it. I said I don’t trust any of you. I said I don’t trust anything of what’s been going on. I said I don’t like this is theres going to be more of the interview coming up in the next couple of episodes but, like we said before, we have four and a half hours, so we’re breaking up into manageable chokes. Let’s discuss what was talked about so far. Andone of the big takeaways straightway is how strange law enforcement seem to be acting and how immediately I think Victoria was questioning their motives right Ni. So you got ta figure, so she left at what eight thirty from her job. When everything got right around eight or eight thirty, you know she was notified and by eleven o’clock, she’s already ready and called the FBI. Now, when you think about to put yourself in a traumatic event, put yourself in that that time where that bomb goes off, and you can’t see everything you have you know you just have punnal vision. You can’t even perceive everything you know and M so that that’s where Victoria is right now and she had enough what she was picking up and through this major major crisis moment was. I cannot trust law enforcement to the point where she isn’t evenswhat. You know a friend of hers to that’s bringing a document for her to for them tecide, so they can access to find her husband. She already senses something yeah. You know a dearn. That is the bigger thing. It’s when you said I can have trust law enforcement. It could be Jo public out there that doesn’t have any dealing with them, but we’re talking about the people that came overo her house for dinner, people that she was runs with Babysad for everything, people that see newear they partia. But then, when it comes down to her crisis moment, you know he wasn’t even at the at the funeral. You know- and you know it was cold- didn’t even give her a hug was in her driveway in in her moment of crisis. You know someone who she cooked for m. You know couldn’t couldn’t give her any anything. You know. Maybe he was trying to maintain that professional mine, because this was him. This was Anford at work. We don’t know that, but but Sanford at work was stopping by and getting Hosta Right, II’ll see hem for it on once freak at least Brak. Okay, O ons, pery famor, but you’re right, something seems fishy right up the bad and Victoria caught it right away. Um. I wanted to go back because there was a part earlier in the interview where she discusses how her husband was taking her daughter down to Ou for the day, and he got a call from according to the daughter, a sheriff now a lot of people, I notice call any deputy or anyone with the sheriff department I sher, but there’s only one SHERF. So did she mean it was a deputy calling and inquiring about jewelery or Wasnit the sheriff that could make a difference, but either way? What do you think about that? I mean re before he goes missing. He gets a phone call according to the daughter from somebody from the sheriff’s apartment inquiring about children. Justicincidence I mean it’s. You know it’s so hard to say it’s hard to assume that it really was sheriff Miller so mea. I hope that listeners don’t feel that way. ’cause. I don’t feel that way personally, that it was necessarily M Miller. You know he gouldave just been someone from the sheriff’s Office and then she thought you know the sheriff Um it’s hard to say. You know I mean Brian. That was his job, and you know everyone knows the markup that you get when you go to a diamond store, so I mean I could picture you know like people Kinda, you know getting at that, but it can sometimes be confusing because we’re dealing with a sheriff’s office. So when someone says sheriff, they don’t necessarily mean Thu share off and that’s probably what happened in that call. If someonewas just asking him for a jewelry advice, you know, I think the more important thing is is I mean he spent a lot of time with her and it didn’t seem like anything out of the ordinary. You know, and you know if they had a good drive m. It sounds like it’s something that m that the daughter really cherished as far as a memory. You know with her father, but you know I don’t know you know. Could it have been something that went but then again, if you’re doing this all above boared that wouldn’t have been the reason that you would have gotten out of bed that night yeah. I don’t know if that has anything to do with that Um. Let me bring up this, then so why didn’t they interview the family? Why did not? Why do the law enforcement members not contact Ed Family? Isn’t that the first step in any kind of criminal investigation like one oh one? Well, clearly they were getting information enough that they felt like from some other source, which I think that will come out and I think I’R beable to put that together in later episodes. But that is to me a you know: That’s like interview, one. Oh one go to the people that know hem the motive they pretty much bypassed it day, dont be o stotistically right. People are killed by people, they know people that are close to them. Very. The Stranger in murder is a much more exotic and rare type of murder. Correct and you know so the people closest to ’em. You know obviously w when they start putting this piece together. They know that Victoria was the last one to see him and how much time did they spend talking to Victoria? You know very little in her kitchen on the most tragic day. I would say I don’t want to speak for her, but probably the most tratec day of her life, you know, and so they didn’t bring her back. They didn’t try to gather more evidence. You know, I think the hard part is is this day is so important and as you see, we just pent a towoff oneful episode pretty much on this day and we’ve got even more to come just about this day alone. Um, you know- and it’s it’s just so it’s such an important time and when you’re in this tragic moment, there’s things that you miss. So it’s like you’re trying to pick up these little things and I’m I’m shocked at how much Victoria can recall on this, because you know it’s it’s just it had to have been Insaneo and going back to this teg. So I’m glad you BROUGHDT UF how crucial and how much, how many important things are set up about the whole case on just t e small little window of time right, because now we have the forensics and already off the bed. They skewed it up. incontamity, Philly IV own is contaminated t. It sounded like wording to multiple WITNESSISM. We have some UN confirmed sources too that wore in the crime scene and we’re going to be we’re reaching outo them right now, we’re actively working those leaves and trying to bring them to you. But we have multiple people in Victoria out of roron mouth eamatter, how there was no control of to crime. sceine that you had Linda bowers, it seems to be all over. The place is touching a cell phone she’s doing all kinds of things, and then you go back to the fact that the person that’s dumbled on the SCINE didn’td call nine one. One. I’ve been talking to my wife about this yeah. So let me put this out there and went you to try to tell me what you think. Se Walk into your office you’re coming in turning on the lights and you see o the office is disheveled right, because we have report that it was there’s blood. There’s nobody there’s nobody hurt that you can see. I mean you can tell somebody wit, hurt that you see Bloo, but you don’t see anybody. Would you call Nian right away or would you call your boss? I would oh with one. Would I call asolete first Um. I think I would call nine undred and one and then call my boss, but I mean that would be that’s a tough decision, though Y Oaus, when I first heard that o’mthing like that Fishas, the maitenance Guardin call nine one one. He called Linda bowers. First Riaen aparently, probably told him icoion one was at any caued Sanford, oh, so I even Sandford like is pretty much like nine one one when I yes and no so so I guess the question is: Is Um, you know what what’s going on with Sandford. Why did he need another copy of the information from Bryan’s Fon? A remember, Brian’s phone is the thing that got him up at two awe in the morning to to leave to go down there and let me just upir because whatever as on Brian’s phone is probably the enser o the whole mystery right, I mean if we really had it. If we had who got him up, I I mean that’s highly incriminating right, go aheadthe, sir. You know so he’s trying to get it ow. So the sheriffs office has the right to the phone. The only person that doesn’t necessarily directly have the information of the phone. What could be Sanford right because he didn’t have that for and he had a different form per victoria that he was having. He was writing down the zero number of the phone. Why would you need that? SERO number? Did you did you misplace the form? So that’s question number one possible Ri, but let me Guess Wat. Your question number two is, as is like some kind of back door, maybe eaning to pull it out of evidence and look at it and change it. I don’t I mean I don’t know this is all speculation right, we’re not accusing anybody of anthing but we’re just ornes prone it at the wind. You guys are thinking about it right now we’re thinking about it. Why would you need the zero number from the phone that that to me is a very puzzling thing that I don’t have an answer for it, but that raises suspicion. Why were you called immediately rather than you know, there’s protocol, you know and there’s Protico on every job and when you walk into something like this there’s Protoco, it’s nine one, one, it’s a recorded line. If you call Sanford directly, it’s not a recorded line, O goo point too. So it means that if the person on the other on the phone wanted to ask questions about the crime scene or make suggestions about what to do with the crimes, that person could do that and go unrecorded, potentially or tell them to do something before it all happens. Or you know I don’t know you know I mean you just don’t you don’t know, you can speculate all day long and I’m not here to speculate. I’m I’m here to we’re here to bring Victorias interview. We her to bring light to the case m. You know so that that’s our MINGL, our our goal is not to you know, cause anybody that that undo harm. That’s right, but I mean still it’s a natural question. We’ve got a question that you got a question right. Oh, why is that which we have reached out to to e we’re trying to reach out to Um Sergeant Sanford? We don’t have a direct line for him. We did reachout to lendabout Torigt. We did reot to Londo and Mite Costello, neither one of both of them declined. I think we talked to island, but just in case you haven’t listened to the first episode, so the pipeline, the Nextis plapline, was the very first thought that victoriamanicon had remember when you were asking her. What was going through mind. That’s my first thing that shethoght had to do with her husband’s disappearance is, is before we found the body but brass what she thought an I had something to d ith. He nextis Piplin right, which you know, went through Laett Township Um. It went through the same property as the fire department, which was a levy at that point. They were trying to get approved, which Frian was very much for Um and it there’s more the lovey or for the Pogon for the Fire Department Levvy, but he was not for ths, not mor the pipelane. No now it’s interesting Um, Linda bowers, was instrumental in the pipeline in Modina County. You can check out her web page Um if you’d like for further information on that, but but she led a countywide group Um for I we want to talk about Linda with Het. We will wait, lie it on the window with the pipeine. Well, let we’ll let Victoria talk about Linda with the pipeline dos come up pretty soon. Probably the next episode yeah talking about that M, so big take aways from this interview, thit’s Mo R. First of all, it’s the first time you guys get to hear of Victoria. You know the sound quality is not great. We did our best, but you know we. We did leave it very um uncut to just it’, it’s directly from her. This is what she wanted and that’s what we’re ougt to do so is to give her a voice and to paint the picture better than what we’ve had thas far, which I think gecan already see, there’s a lot more detail to this than just the quick little snippits which we were ABN to summarize in one episode, so you know the next episode is going to cover more of that day, and you know it cover. It paints a larger picture, you’re GOIN, to have a lot more. You know I like forty five minute ish of information coming at Ya. This is just directly her interview, Um, you know and it’ll. I think I think o’ll you’ll appreciate it and before we pull away from this win, thowg there’s one las thing and Aus I was listening to it. I wrote into my notes in giant letters, and I think this is really big- is that immediately you felt likcover up to Victoria, we kind of addressed at Hous. She called the FBI within a couple of hours, but she was immediately sensing to cover up Yeh and her moment of crisis. She felt that this was a coverep or something of the sort. You know her, she didn’t know who to trust. She didn’t know who to go to her husband’s gone. She doesn’t know about the office as far as how much blood is there or you know, and then now she’s getting rumors Yei’m. Sorry, let me interrupt hat. This is also before they had the office repainted within a day or two. This is before the body was found in the really strange, conflicting reports between the sheriff’s apartment and the autopisy. This is right on the ground. The first few minutes, she’s already sensing cover up and she’s, going to get a whole lot more reasons to believe that there ‘s a cover up in the coming days and months after this isn’tyeah. You know put yourself in victorious situation. Your spouse is gone. You you’ve only known this for two hours and you begin to refuse to sign things from the department because something doesn’t add up, not because you don’t want your husband back, but because something’s not adding up anymore, like it’s, it’s not making sense and that people that were your friends are not being there for you Um. You know and- and you know the day just gets crazyr I couldn’t. When we were doing this interview, I couldn’t believe we were still on the same day. I thought. Oh, my Gosh Ie me a long interview it’s a big day and it turned out to be a long interview, but guys thank o joining us. We’re going to be bringing you more of the Victoria macron interview, we’re going to be bringing you more of the interview with her investigator but in between now and when the next episode comes out again, it’s important for you to share this interview to like it on whatever social media APP that you’re using to listen to it or paccast AP. And let’s just get this out. There put the pressure back on the investigators from the law enforcement and from statewide everything put the pressure back on those people that are responsible for doing their job force them to do their job and let’s try to find briant’s killers. beyond the fact that we just enjoy making them. It’s t e hobby forces honl. We do on the side, but we’re asking you guys- and we never do this to please share this- subscribe- give us five stars on Itunes, because that’s going to tell the algorithms over there to recommend it and, like I said, we just want as many people as possible to hear this because we’re hoping to bring in national attention to this cell, and you know, speaking of Algorithms, they always tell you on Pod Gess. Oh, please leave a comment. ‘CAUSE Thett shows that people like us or whatever, and we would like that, but also, if you have a tip, leave a comment on itunes. After you rate US ’cause that I seeper helpful and like Ricq UASTSAYING, like invisible shits at this point, it’s just three guys that have an interest in in this we’re, not experts, we’re not pretending to be investigators, we’re just talking to people, but along those lines. You know the three of us have different ideas on certain aspects of the case. We don’t know what happened. That’s the point of all this, but when you hear in the interview is the subjects of the interview is opinions. Those are not necessarily our opinions, we’re not making any allegations and in the United States, you’re innocent until proven guilty. So we are going to share all the information that we have. This is going to be an unedited interview, yeah, and that was a big decision that we decided to go. So when you hear the interview honestly, some of the audio quality isn’t invisible ship standards. What we did is the three way phone call yeah. So as a like, a conference call between our invisible shipmake Darin, former federal investigator Paul Hartman and Brian’s widow Victoria mackren, you going to have to forgive some of the quality. There’s some background noise. I couldn’t clean it up. I did T, and I made the choice- that the interview was too important. The insight and the information that Youll gain from listening to it is too important. Tha. I don’t want to destroy Y N, we’re just trying to give you the facts. You make up your own mind and I want to make a point of a reason that we’re doing this is one of the accusations that you will hear here. Um will be maybe not refuted but kind of argued in a different way in an upcoming episode. So in any kind of scenario like this, especially four years later, there’s going to be lots of different things going around and that’s why me personally, even if you might hear it some disparagement of local law enforcement authorities, you know it’s hard until you’re in their shoes to know what they’re doing with so we’re just let ou KINDOF. Let everybody hear this and you know we would be more than willing to hear from the Sheri’s department. I know we’ve reached out to Mr Sandford. Who’s retired toll hear about him, so we we definitely don’t want to run anybody off the road or railroadevanybody we’re talking and we’re reathing. Now to just about everyone that comes up so, hopefully we will be getting hearing back from some of these people, but I guess it’s probably time just to roll of the interview. The interview is Olte wrough for the first half hour, and then it gets a lot better. We just have some interference really on so hang in there. It gets better as Marijuan got me. I got you now. Let me just do the my magic and bring in Victoria here all right. Victori are you here? Yes, I’m here tar you there, I’m here Alligh, so I guess I have successfully dupton one of these irinsine things and connected three of US cool. So it’s happening here now. This is this: Is Victoria Makron on the line? Just so you know how are you he I’m good Victoria? How are you thank Yo, good, all right, so we’re putting together a podcast and I’ve had an interest in your husband’s disappearance and murder and we’re looking to you know wherwhere’s awareness about it. So I really appreciate Youud put ininside time here to talk to us today. Oh my God, you don’t know, I’m so glad, I’m so grateful. Thank you, I’m so sorry for everything that you’ve been through. I canhave ININ A metail I’ve. I’ve got some questions for Yau Um, so so t’s tof that we don’t know Um. Can you describe like the night that so obviously he went out? You know Brian went out to a get together over at h. The winking Lizard. Is that right, correct and that was in Bronswick, and it was far a get together for Christmas for township officials and whoever worked in Lafette O. There were some other like the local prosecutor and the county commissioners were invited as well Oky. What? What time do you remember like roughly like what time that party was going from Windowin? I don’t. I I’m trying to think Um I had to. I was going to attend with my husband, but my youngest daughter had had a roken foot and the boot was coming off and she had to go to a physical therapy, her first appointment that night, okay, that was, I had to go to that meeting an trive oclock. I believe the Christmas one started, maybe around six, okay and and then he from there went and Fawl a movie right afterwards right Cracpe, they went to see star wars Um. I was part of that and I hadn’t heard from him till one of township, the other township trustee had messaged me and th wasoothat message because it never came through as a text message. It came Togh His Messenger and I didn’t see it till the next morning, because I was asking that I was asking Brian. What time are you guys going up w? When are you eating and that’s when I didn’t see the message Ti that morning, so I was at home, okay, so then he went and saw the movie with Costello. He yeah he apparently went with Castello okay. Did he go with anybody else, Nodon’t know of anyone else. Can I correct you there just for a moment yeah. There was some preliminary indication that bowers was there as well yeah. I found that out later because a friend of our from high school, his sister, saw that Linda bours had posted something on face, Balk about the movie nenonce to Mei, didn’t know. If she, I can’t sae for sure if she was there, but there was reference to it through a facedbook message that he had commented on okay m. So what what was Brian’s relationship to the best of your knowledge with Costello and bowers like did he? How did he like working with them? It was, I mean it was friendly Um because they had to work together, but there were. There were situations that m. You know. Brian Brian spoke, the Trut criing was about Noble Shid, you know he’s here, Toserv the residence and let’s have an open line. Acen e Shell- and there were numerous ties where maybe at a trusty meeting Linda, was offended t what he would say. I can’t believe you just set that on the record. He knows why, like so what? Let’s speak the truth here Um, so there were times when they would have to vote on something and he would come home from a trusty meeting and say: Oh, I see how the meeting go. He goes good but Lyndis mad at me again, and I said why would she be mad at you and he said? Well, she didn’t like the way I voted. Okay, yeah, she seems like an outspoken trustee. Does that sound Kindo like yes, MHM, okay, Ye, Brian Brian, wasn’t a puppet yeahyeah? He didn’t want to del it. Everybody else wanted to do he waned to do what was right to do? What was right, he said. Ysometimes too, you know you have a resident that would be upset, they might come into the meeting Um and he’s like you know, maybe I didn’t see laby. I had my view of what they were trying to address at the eating and he said after listening to the resident, I could see their sight of it, but by giving them the chance to listen, it may have changed his mind. Like Hey, you know what you got avail apoint here, let’s see how we can wok this out, so we always gave he resident the benefit like. Let me hear you out you, your Scnerio, give me a reason what you know Um and then Castello he he would come to Brian a lot and say you know o Ha Owai ’cause. He was also a Finier yeah. I saw that yeah he’s a firefighter for o the township and he works as a reelator for lynd of hours as well under her proedge reality. Okay, so would you say Costello and bowers were kind of a lot more together and brain with one othe one out as far as like Odmad out a lot of times when it came to different thing, a and only because Brian was firm on some beliefs. That m you know that they were, and Brian wasn’t going to be a puppet, and I know I mean he had said before- that yeah definitely Mi Castello Isinust topit she likes Mike because he does what Linda wants noael outside of the truste relationship. How did like m? How did your husband and Castello get along w? Were they crings? Did they do anything Lik to go to a movie? was that like an unusual thing or yes, yes, yeah? I thought that was weird, that I was going to go with them and I never heard from them or here Bryant, that his phone had died at the movie and Castello Waspo Texme, and, let me know, while he sent a message through Mathmanmiron basebalt and at the time I couldn’t get messenger, wouldn’t come up as a message on my phone. It would only. I could only see if you go into facebog Goo wag in the facebook. I would ave never got an alert. I had no idea and I hadtet crying a couple times saying: Hey you know, am I going to come up thor what’s going on and never heard anything, I had asked him to stop on the way home if he could get money out of the ban, because my daughter was going to go to breakfast before finals that morning to bring a couple bucks home for her s to go in the morning. Okay, so, but Um work. No, we we, he didn’t do anything. There was one instance after a commissioners meeting that we attended and we all went up, Um and just hung out after it one of the local eateries og and got something to eat after, but that was really the only time to did. He hang out with him. No O. It was not something common, IC, Cani, just step in here her a moment, and that is the the SACEBOOK MESSENGER application. It is going to be Real, interesting and you’ll see a connection as this goes down the road, but take note of that yeah I read the PA. I know you hoot that on the blague okay, so you understand it. Yes, I understand that part Um and h yeah, I’m with you on that M good. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt UN victor. Oh No! You you’re aneto M, so, okay, so he he comes home and you’re. Probably thinking like where were Yo, you know. Oh, I didn’t need to re home. You know they were Gonta. Well, not tay! ‘CAUSE! I didn’t know he was going with anybody, but I knew he was going to the movie Mhm and he did he got home. I said, oh, how was Amoa, so why didn’t you message me gas? My phone Di didn’t Mike Message. You and I said no Welli didn’t know because, like I said, Messengeryeahdidn’t get it. I’m trying to think Messenger. Now, there’s an at for the phone no dife than now. To tell me like I got them. I was Ol on. I never went into message to look to see. Ruh Umand, then he pucked his phonand when he got home and it was uround Christmas. We had to Elphin the shelf he’s like. Oh did you put the OP on the shelf out and I said no not yet, and then he went over to the sink and he’s like hey, there’s kick and tenders in the St they were defrosting. They said I took those out, he goes well, don’t you want to make those ’cause? He knows. I always make my kids, these chicken raps for their lunches and he’s like. Don’t you want to cook these? I said Yeah. Actually I will put ’em in so I put Hem in the oven. I don’t know they cook, for maybe twenty minutes half hour and that time we did the Elfinshel that for our youngest and we went to bed oker now was it and then so the the store that I’m told as around two AWAT. He got a message on his phone creck. Yes, and I remember he had the Sam Song Edge Son, it was a newer phone in it like has where it extends the glass down into the side s. You can see like if it’s laying on a flat surface, you can see like a message come through. I remember seeing a Lioon, I don’t know if there was necessarily a message what but I now looking back Paul said at Twoo Eigt. So we went to bed, it was prie shortly after one and I remember seeing a light, so it like lit up the side of terom where he lays on that side of the bed mh and it lit up, and I remember seeing him get off. I remember seeing him standing there, but then from that I don’t know because I just figured Oh, is he going the bathroom captain sentner made a sleetment during the UM captain senter made a statement during the icontreobecause Anfrendor, something that Yvitoria knew where he was going? I said I didn’t know where I did. I didn’t know he was going anywhere yt him get up. It was at the side of the bed and I think at that time I was like I dfom. I never saw me the room, I am Sawan. I just saw him get up. That was it OK, so he said O ya. I he never talked to me so how cal he make that statement. That’s that’s a very good question. You know I can let me just step in here for a moment. If I can again Victoria, please forgive me for adding side notes here. Yet theyare quote a quite PRESSD conference. If you see that and ou you can find that on you toob actually ouand Um according to Setner, who, quite frankly, doesta nose, askrim a hole in the ground. U Never Talk to me about anything and then he’s going to make a stepness. Thati Bryin got up and I knew where he was going. I didn’t know wherere He’as going. I didn’t even talk to him. Saidthe Ady, fil, Hunee, Hin, get up e Boe saw looking back was, was he going the bathroom? I don’t know I conut it’s like you ace, conscious, like you kind of wake up, you see it and you cust go back to sleep. I didn’t think I’. Even of it he got up and went to the bathroom frequently yeah. No, I think that’s you know, like I sai. I mean with M my wife, you know. If I get up, you know she doesn’t know where I’m going to go, I could have gone and left and she wouldn’t have known. You know. I can’t understand what you’re saying like we always Lok with a downcomforter hunter bed and he was morethewarm bloode yeah t overheated, so in his mthe heater o the vent was on his hide the bed, so we’d always get the heat right away, but Um sometimes he would even go down and like lay on the couch in the basement like to cool off or if he knew he had to travel in the morning, t touch an early flight he’s like I was asleep in the basement S. I don’t wake all of you guys up trying to get out whatever in the morning so m. sometimes he would do that. No, I didn’t like I said I didn’t think anything of it. It wasn’t unusual, you don’t think you’re going to wake up in the morning and your husband’s missing. I know no IA, no so you’re GOIN HA in o point you if I can, and that is that at the cotical press conference, Um sent a claim that Brian left home at one thirty in the morning, which is clearly deceated by the fact that Braan was home in bed at one thirty and actually ae see that that message actualae the morning which ultimately tigger him to leave the house- that’s theyeah yeah. So so you wake up. Um realize that Brian’s not there and he was supposed to be there in the morning. I think it right realize he wasn’t here I mean I know he wasn’t next to me an bed but ijust got up like any other day and I got ready for work. I was good ready for work and UM. I get to work and my daughter calls me and she’s like ’cause. I knew what he had to go to a meeting. He said I have to go to a meeting in the morning, so he asked Alex our oldest to take Nia, our youngest to school. I didn’t, I thought, meeding. Okay, IT’S FOR JEWELRY CAUSE! That’s the Business Ein and a lot of times he’d go out lass. I knew he was going to go to the guy in Worcester M Kat. What is it Yis? It CGRANDA? Yes, Cakaday Yeah Megerd, so he had a stor. looster am good friends, good good client, ofbrian’s Um, and he would go out there and parioccally like talk to the whole staff, and he said he was waiting on, bind aon talk to him and what I thought he said. I have a meeting and that’s what I thought so I didn’t think anything of it in the morning. You know when you get off your faingyou’re okay. Well, I got to work in Alex called and she said mind. Do you know where Dad is? I said Ni. I said at a meeting and she’s like Shd. I said she says: Well, they can’t find him. I go who what are you talking about? She said to Shareif ar here to they’re ge’re at your Hihe Moseur Fetchyour House, yeah ogod. She said this hars for he thor looking for that. So we’ll wait a minute. She goes or remember. I have to take me at of school, I said well last. I knew he had a kneeting Mgeso that I’m like Alex go down the basement. I siggled own the gate that look on the couch, no he’s out there, she’s walking around the house, not when she comes out. She sank. They’re already in our house inside, like in a kitchen, agree sther and they open the door and let themselves in youthing Er someone Woinso E, O O. I believe they did OUTALEC had come see come here. Like I don’t know, I believe she may have let them in the front foyer area and when she came upstairs she goes no. They were in the kitchen and they were looking around like and then Jim Sanford, who grind rode, frequently wit. That’s his right along he’d, always go with. He was walking out. ATWIC was following. He was walking out towards the front ’cause. She was like dirupting them out and she said she I sould go and open the door to the garage is his car in there and she’s, lno and Jim said. I already looked in her ww, so so this the sergeant, Sanford Um, that’s, come up a couple of different times. I’ve I’ve looked into so that was that was Brian’s main right along, but then he retired within, like at the end of the year right he retired, to gay byinessing yeah. So was that a planned retirement that he did? Everybody know that he was retiring. I don’t know okay Wul, they werepurni think. I have so many notes too, that I was taking noteshistwo weeks then for retirement and it was going to be at the end of the Mon. THAT’S THATS! That’s what I could find, but I mean hat doesn’t mean it’s true, but I I found that it was the thirty first s o six December. Thirty, first of SE, en it was, I pretty sure, that’s what it was AI interget here. I think that at least the Cino understanding is that he put in his retirement papers on the date that thise hads occurred, Oky, which would make sense Fer rente two weeks to be the end of the Yela yeah and and then looking back ’cause. I told Alexokan when we when he came home that night my car was in the Garage Alex, had pulled Hal car in the garage and then glion’s car was in the drid behind hose. So he w he was a curse. One out, then, if he usually bra always culled te grade, Alexs was intrige. Ok, U Everybody Got Al Anhe got home from. I work switch Colsso. I like they said. Why did look in the Gra? Didn’t you notice his car was gone? Well then it occurred to me he poked outside that night. Okay, she said I he woas Laughan Home Couse, O the movie Mhm Yeah Yeah, O Sol Um. That’s interesting! Sergeant Sanford was at Your House thoday that he went missing Um, you know and he was the one on’. ONET get too far ahead: Um welllet’s ogoe back to Sanford. So, okay, so you got notified at work. Um and then did you immediately leave work? Then? Oh, my God, heave gone outright. WHEREDID YOU GO II said I dropped my stuff. It was like eight. Oh Five on II got I just like I just waghed, I just I gotta go and my supervisor was like what is wrong Igo. My husband is in thisting and she’s like, Oh, my God. What like everyone was like. What what are you talking? It’s like and I try calling him and then she’s like you, can’t drive, you can’t drive and I’m like a just take me. Take me I’ out of the home, so we get in the car. Well, I could barely walk down the steps to work. It was like you know when you’re walking and it’s Liht Yolike, you c you can’t, even if you like, you’re going nowhere, it was like it was like his. I can’t even explain it and he waid some walking down the stairs Bakstea GN. She gets me to her car and she kicks me. Wait a minut wait. I had matty square she’s having breakfast, I got ta get her, so she stopped the car quick and I jumped out together ’cause she was having breakfast with girlfriends Ma. We gotto. We got to go Tanaho he’s issing, she said B. Like no one knows it’s like just you can’t even we get in the car and Wan a takes me to my house and when we get there, seein forts standing in my Fik in front of the garage was shut and he’s standing in front of the garage with Linda Bouers and he’s standing like it like at attention with his arms crossed behind his back so stolic and I’m like he knows me like he knows, he’s been to our house for dinner, like on shift. He come by Savin possibov coming over and eat and I said he’s standing outside so stoic. I go up til. I go gym Jim it her spryand. If you hurt fom Bryan, and he goes, I don’t know, and he just like shook his head. Liside aside, I so what do you mean? What do you mean? Haven’t you topped Te? Pian said I don’t know, I don’t know where he is lo cold, so and LEDA after they’re in my house, walking in and around my house and the T and then they’re standing outtigh like they’ve never been inside. It is kind O likt and I didn’t know this till after I talked to Alexan. It kind of really upset me that I would definitely be upset on that, like dull, in like nohi yeah, so cold, so cold Nda same with Linda I te window as ther Costello was not you’re, saying that you can recall ’cause. I mean obviously a trust me. I’ve been through traumatic things as well, and when everything happens, you know you got punnel vision too. You know, but Toyour Bestknowledge, you didn’t see, Custallo, remember, Casello being there. It was just Linda in San Ferd. Don’t believe Castella was here. No, there was other. There was other deputies here at that point. People started flowing in, like my mom Kame, my sister Cam Um Ilet me think. Do you remember the name of that Guy Paul? Who Was it to talk to me briefly? I must at twenty thirty people in my house at this point. When were got o people were coming over in my family meand one of the deputies came. What was that not Ross? One of them came in and sat down with me for, like maybe for minutes, five minutes. How were you Abrian hows your relationship? Did you have an argument? I’m like now? No, I said we had. I mean we had arguments. Is this an argument? No, I mean I do’t knowwhat, I mean I know they have to ask that that was basically the briefh little bit of like that. I’ve ever talked to them y. So did they interview? They didn’t interview any further than that day that five minutes sit down in your kitchen, O wow, no yeah, okay Y. AH, no, they never. They never even interviewed my oldest daughter Alex who, on this was Friday and Tuesday. She was going to her orientation at Ohio State. She was transferring from Ou to Ohio, state, Anne Bride and her drove down the morning of Turesday drove down and drow all the way back. They had good conversation. She said he was on the phone with one of the somebody from the sheerest department talking about jewelery and selling jewelery to them. Sh galax said it was the sheriff so who that was, I’m not sure. Og, but she said Yeh de talk to him on the way home they never. They never interviewed my daughter to say you know. How was your dad? What d you guys talk about? You know nothing. They never interviewed one of my family members, ell. Okay, I mean D, You would think you know. I mean you know Y. obviously you know like H, you know if you watch any dateline, you know they’l always say like the first. You know the people closest are the ones you want to get all that reason Forwa. Yes, you always want to ask the mpy Hurst Yeah Okad, never, except for that those few minutes in my morning, room and then later that day, okay, so the Gui that came and talked to me, he had me fill out it’s like a half sheet of paper and it had like a carmonless copy in Thehmso. He fills us out he ays well. This is for briant’s cellphone the model of a cellphone, so we can have access to it now. This was probably nine nine thirty in the morning somewhere around there, and so I signed it. He gave me a copy of it. They eave I’m gonhlet me step in here for a moment. That was your consent to to h, accept thephone, but they have already searched the phone. Yes ’cause they had the phone ’cause. It was in the office right, Oh, they had the phone and everyone was touching that phon they never sent it for forensics. They never. As far as I know they never at that point they were already accessing it or theyt even did any fingerprints or anything Bu, okay M, because tought he told me that Li hours tipped up the phone and was like touching it, because it was on the desk where the Secretary Sits: Huh, okay, but most of the like, as far as it being the crime scene. Most of that was in his office or was it throughout the whole place? You know it’s not hectically an office, it was a back room like umit. Was a conference room? Okay, that’s where that’s where this to Litli Yeah, O God, so ith a back conferent irl and they said there was aeither it stillinfuriates me. It still infurites me because theythey let people come up there. Linda bowers was up there. MYK CASTELLO was up there, the maintenance guy walked in on it. He was up there. They were walking around that whole place. Everybody might saw the sea, the maintenance ky apparently walked in, saw the scene and that’s the one who reported it right. The maintenanceer doing owho reported Asfar, as I know, yeah. That’s who called it it. He called, I believe he called Sanford Furst Okynwhy Sanford. Why not just calling to the sheriff? why O nine, what non yeah? So what so? What’s well at’, I think hit’s a good time to go to Sanford, so so Sanford was. You would consider a friend of Brian Right, ybut, then, as soon as this happened, what was your so obviously you had the encounter where it was very stoic did not offer any achletes didn’t seem to really give you any information and then he put in his twowignotice that day. What’s what when’s the last time you’ve talked to him, I have so not since the day in the driveway there was no otheri tried calling him. He came. Howhen they had me sign that form at the Househm I at happy of it, so they all left and ifriend. He actually came and said he’s I his children and he’s plice officer he’ The PLAC e Tamavel he came and sell with my family t got knowing what his was. We were worried. Um. I think I kept my winon jacket affer two days waiting to get a call, TA, Tirch and Um Tarry came and sat with us the entire day. I’m just, I think, is like comfort and protection. Thatyou know I’m going to sit with your family because you don’t know what’s going on, so he sact her and I think that he showd up after this other incident, I’m getting Ahoud of myself but okay, so jim had called me after I sign at consenting Jim had called me and said we need you to come or I need to come by the house and you need to sign another form to take his laptop, his small laptop that he traveled with. I said: Ok, I said in the meantime, as I’m waiting for him to come. I got on the phone right away, M and Al the FBI, and I said someone has got to help me. I don’t know what is going on, but I said I’. I don’t know what to do and I Gav the people o get touch a talk to someone and then my brother in laws, my sister in law wig. Just I let me think at husband, work, Hi Otes, he worked Ho said: Bitian H, yeah. He knew Somebod, he was an attorney, but he knew someone that Wook for BC. I and he’s like Um, just let DC I handle this. You know I’m like I don’t know what to do. I don’t know if I want to talk to them. I don’t trust them. I don’t know what’s going on. I don’t trust anybody here and so your hunch at this very beginning part, was it wat something to do with either the the township or the SHERF soffice or what Yahyes somebody something or I didn’t know even the pipeline, or this is were the nexest playline which I’ve I’ve gotten my notes Toso something possibl, but not something to do with like his business as a jeweller n hour. His past experience as a marine. Those things not even arestaceeling. No, nothing like that something more with something local is is where te were eting local because of the way that they were handling it like it felt lihefelt like it felt like I’ as much as like JI has been around and he was enly Witho. All of I ds like this, so so to offer nothing and no condolence, I mean who even guess how can you have that in your conscience to even not offer something like it’s just it just fel Weir, I’m going to tell you Sol. We O was to his birthday party OU OATA IT s. It was like W has a side out here. This guy stand forever, went to the wake or the funeral service. Okay, did the trustees go to the the tervitionwenot invited? Ok, because Linda Linda is all about unotoriety and how Shecan, even in the even in all of this Linda, will insert herself at ry along lit so helpfull and she um she wants notariety Ogon. She adaptsyeah that’s how I thawit yea in a defi. First, I kept her. You know they say Umkeep, your friends close, but your enemy’s, closer p you and I started like I was. I would message her to see I like well, she would know she noped everything. SOMO was keeping her Po, say Hotwal, I gotta know if she knows, or his cok noke tack to town all the time, so I stood doing that, but that I’m, like you, know what I don’t even trust her. I completely shut myself off from all of them. So in the midst of I was Gong to I before the Cole Ouf the eye got that Olrom JEM. He needs to come by to have me Sinus, for so he comes, and then I call the F Bi when he’s on teiilver and II. Let him in- and I said M he’s like why I have this Fon Esect Migt, for you to sign and I said, and he was going to start talking to me N. I said you know what let me tell you something I said Brian did everything he could for this township, and I said I’m not talking to you, I’m not telling you anything. I said I don’t trust you and he’s like. I just want you to know that she said something and I I didn’t it was like like that. CUNNEL Visiot, like you can’t you see em talking, but I can’t even ’cause. I didn’t care what he was saying at the pot at time is so a imand he’s like Um Lyou need to sign this, and I said you know what I said: I’m not finding anything. I S, I’m not saying I won’t sign it, but Sall. I have somebody or an attorney telling me you know representing me. I said I’m not doing anything. ’cause, I don’t trust any of you, okay n. This was how soon like so the sixteenth es y about ten thirty Elavenash Mabehi as on the sixteenth, or this is a later date. This is on the sixteent on the sixtiieth bcause. He wanted me to come and sign this other form and he says oh by the way he says. Tyou do you have tha other form that you sig earlier her t h, that was, it was hee, said: Yeahi Gat. I see it. I said Chirst. He starts. Writing the sterial number down on a Brian’s phone and I’m like waitand. I pull it away from him. I said you already have a copy of this. I said you’re not happying this again on this one have a ha side. I cudo Ha ta tapy tat to Te Fall. I sugesthis is how sady the investing it’s like. Why are you starting to waite this Dow and you already have a copy of it? I said you came here for me to find for the computer yeah I didnt Yoen to esign in the form for the phone. I said now, you’re taking the cerial number doubt for this. I said no, I soaid get it on the other form. A it just made me feel uneasy, like wait, a minute they’re supposed to have this copy to search the phone and now he’s Kot out on this new F, which was like a whole like opoksized piece of paper and the other Thal was only half, so I don’t know what they did with that sabcause. They couldn’t even keep the paper. Well, quite yeah. Well, what did he say whenever you know you SA ID li? That form was already tecul. I’M NOT SAYING I won’t SID it. I said I don’t trust any of you. I said I don’t trust anything of what’s been going on. I said I don’t like this is theres going to be more of the interview coming up in the next couple of episodes but, like we said before, we have four and a half hours, so we’re breaking up into manageable chokes. Let’s discuss what was talked about so far. Andone of the big takeaways straightway is how strange law enforcement seem to be acting and how immediately I think Victoria was questioning their motives right Ni. So you got ta figure, so she left at what eight thirty from her job. When everything got right around eight or eight thirty, you know she was notified and by eleven o’clock, she’s already ready and called the FBI. Now, when you think about to put yourself in a traumatic event, put yourself in that that time where that bomb goes off, and you can’t see everything you have you know you just have punnal vision. You can’t even perceive everything you know and M so that that’s where Victoria is right now and she had enough what she was picking up and through this major major crisis moment was. I cannot trust law enforcement to the point where she isn’t evenswhat. You know a friend of hers to that’s bringing a document for her to for them tecide, so they can access to find her husband. She already senses something yeah. You know a dearn. That is the bigger thing. It’s when you said I can have trust law enforcement. It could be Jo public out there that doesn’t have any dealing with them, but we’re talking about the people that came overo her house for dinner, people that she was runs with Babysad for everything, people that see newear they partia. But then, when it comes down to her crisis moment, you know he wasn’t even at the at the funeral. You know- and you know it was cold- didn’t even give her a hug was in her driveway in in her moment of crisis. You know someone who she cooked for m. You know couldn’t couldn’t give her any anything. You know. Maybe he was trying to maintain that professional mine, because this was him. This was Anford at work. We don’t know that, but but Sanford at work was stopping by and getting Hosta Right, II’ll see hem for it on once freak at least Brak. Okay, O ons, pery famor, but you’re right, something seems fishy right up the bad and Victoria caught it right away. Um. I wanted to go back because there was a part earlier in the interview where she discusses how her husband was taking her daughter down to Ou for the day, and he got a call from according to the daughter, a sheriff now a lot of people, I notice call any deputy or anyone with the sheriff department I sher, but there’s only one SHERF. So did she mean it was a deputy calling and inquiring about jewelery or Wasnit the sheriff that could make a difference, but either way? What do you think about that? I mean re before he goes missing. He gets a phone call according to the daughter from somebody from the sheriff’s apartment inquiring about children. Justicincidence I mean it’s. You know it’s so hard to say it’s hard to assume that it really was sheriff Miller so mea. I hope that listeners don’t feel that way. ’cause. I don’t feel that way personally, that it was necessarily M Miller. You know he gouldave just been someone from the sheriff’s Office and then she thought you know the sheriff Um it’s hard to say. You know I mean Brian. That was his job, and you know everyone knows the markup that you get when you go to a diamond store, so I mean I could picture you know like people Kinda, you know getting at that, but it can sometimes be confusing because we’re dealing with a sheriff’s office. So when someone says sheriff, they don’t necessarily mean Thu share off and that’s probably what happened in that call. If someonewas just asking him for a jewelry advice, you know, I think the more important thing is is I mean he spent a lot of time with her and it didn’t seem like anything out of the ordinary. You know, and you know if they had a good drive m. It sounds like it’s something that m that the daughter really cherished as far as a memory. You know with her father, but you know I don’t know you know. Could it have been something that went but then again, if you’re doing this all above boared that wouldn’t have been the reason that you would have gotten out of bed that night yeah. I don’t know if that has anything to do with that Um. Let me bring up this, then so why didn’t they interview the family? Why did not? Why do the law enforcement members not contact Ed Family? Isn’t that the first step in any kind of criminal investigation like one oh one? Well, clearly they were getting information enough that they felt like from some other source, which I think that will come out and I think I’R beable to put that together in later episodes. But that is to me a you know: That’s like interview, one. Oh one go to the people that know hem the motive they pretty much bypassed it day, dont be o stotistically right. People are killed by people, they know people that are close to them. Very. The Stranger in murder is a much more exotic and rare type of murder. Correct and you know so the people closest to ’em. You know obviously w when they start putting this piece together. They know that Victoria was the last one to see him and how much time did they spend talking to Victoria? You know very little in her kitchen on the most tragic day. I would say I don’t want to speak for her, but probably the most tratec day of her life, you know, and so they didn’t bring her back. They didn’t try to gather more evidence. You know, I think the hard part is is this day is so important and as you see, we just pent a towoff oneful episode pretty much on this day and we’ve got even more to come just about this day alone. Um, you know- and it’s it’s just so it’s such an important time and when you’re in this tragic moment, there’s things that you miss. So it’s like you’re trying to pick up these little things and I’m I’m shocked at how much Victoria can recall on this, because you know it’s it’s just it had to have been Insaneo and going back to this teg. So I’m glad you BROUGHDT UF how crucial and how much, how many important things are set up about the whole case on just t e small little window of time right, because now we have the forensics and already off the bed. They skewed it up. incontamity, Philly IV own is contaminated t. It sounded like wording to multiple WITNESSISM. We have some UN confirmed sources too that wore in the crime scene and we’re going to be we’re reaching outo them right now, we’re actively working those leaves and trying to bring them to you. But we have multiple people in Victoria out of roron mouth eamatter, how there was no control of to crime. sceine that you had Linda bowers, it seems to be all over. The place is touching a cell phone she’s doing all kinds of things, and then you go back to the fact that the person that’s dumbled on the SCINE didn’td call nine one. One. I’ve been talking to my wife about this yeah. So let me put this out there and went you to try to tell me what you think. Se Walk into your office you’re coming in turning on the lights and you see o the office is disheveled right, because we have report that it was there’s blood. There’s nobody there’s nobody hurt that you can see. I mean you can tell somebody wit, hurt that you see Bloo, but you don’t see anybody. Would you call Nian right away or would you call your boss? I would oh with one. Would I call asolete first Um. I think I would call nine undred and one and then call my boss, but I mean that would be that’s a tough decision, though Y Oaus, when I first heard that o’mthing like that Fishas, the maitenance Guardin call nine one one. He called Linda bowers. First Riaen aparently, probably told him icoion one was at any caued Sanford, oh, so I even Sandford like is pretty much like nine one one when I yes and no so so I guess the question is: Is Um, you know what what’s going on with Sandford. Why did he need another copy of the information from Bryan’s Fon? A remember, Brian’s phone is the thing that got him up at two awe in the morning to to leave to go down there and let me just upir because whatever as on Brian’s phone is probably the enser o the whole mystery right, I mean if we really had it. If we had who got him up, I I mean that’s highly incriminating right, go aheadthe, sir. You know so he’s trying to get it ow. So the sheriffs office has the right to the phone. The only person that doesn’t necessarily directly have the information of the phone. What could be Sanford right because he didn’t have that for and he had a different form per victoria that he was having. He was writing down the zero number of the phone. Why would you need that? SERO number? Did you did you misplace the form? So that’s question number one possible Ri, but let me Guess Wat. Your question number two is, as is like some kind of back door, maybe eaning to pull it out of evidence and look at it and change it. I don’t I mean I don’t know this is all speculation right, we’re not accusing anybody of anthing but we’re just ornes prone it at the wind. You guys are thinking about it right now we’re thinking about it. Why would you need the zero number from the phone that that to me is a very puzzling thing that I don’t have an answer for it, but that raises suspicion. Why were you called immediately rather than you know, there’s protocol, you know and there’s Protico on every job and when you walk into something like this there’s Protoco, it’s nine one, one, it’s a recorded line. If you call Sanford directly, it’s not a recorded line, O goo point too. So it means that if the person on the other on the phone wanted to ask questions about the crime scene or make suggestions about what to do with the crimes, that person could do that and go unrecorded, potentially or tell them to do something before it all happens. Or you know I don’t know you know I mean you just don’t you don’t know, you can speculate all day long and I’m not here to speculate. I’m I’m here to we’re here to bring Victorias interview. We her to bring light to the case m. You know so that that’s our MINGL, our our goal is not to you know, cause anybody that that undo harm. That’s right, but I mean still it’s a natural question. We’ve got a question that you got a question right. Oh, why is that which we have reached out to to e we’re trying to reach out to Um Sergeant Sanford? We don’t have a direct line for him. We did reachout to lendabout Torigt. We did reot to Londo and Mite Costello, neither one of both of them declined. I think we talked to island, but just in case you haven’t listened to the first episode, so the pipeline, the Nextis plapline, was the very first thought that victoriamanicon had remember when you were asking her. What was going through mind. That’s my first thing that shethoght had to do with her husband’s disappearance is, is before we found the body but brass what she thought an I had something to d ith. He nextis Piplin right, which you know, went through Laett Township Um. It went through the same property as the fire department, which was a levy at that point. They were trying to get approved, which Frian was very much for Um and it there’s more the lovey or for the Pogon for the Fire Department Levvy, but he was not for ths, not mor the pipelane. No now it’s interesting Um, Linda bowers, was instrumental in the pipeline in Modina County. You can check out her web page Um if you’d like for further information on that, but but she led a countywide group Um for I we want to talk about Linda with Het. We will wait, lie it on the window with the pipeine. Well, let we’ll let Victoria talk about Linda with the pipeline dos come up pretty soon. Probably the next episode yeah talking about that M, so big take aways from this interview, thit’s Mo R. First of all, it’s the first time you guys get to hear of Victoria. You know the sound quality is not great. We did our best, but you know we. We did leave it very um uncut to just it’, it’s directly from her. This is what she wanted and that’s what we’re ougt to do so is to give her a voice and to paint the picture better than what we’ve had thas far, which I think gecan already see, there’s a lot more detail to this than just the quick

little snippits which we were ABN to summarize in one episode, so you know the next episode is going to cover more of that day, and you know it cover. It paints a larger picture, you’re GOIN, to have a lot more. You know I like forty five minute ish of information coming at Ya. This is just directly her interview, Um, you know and it’ll. I think I think o’ll you’ll appreciate it and before we pull away from this win, thowg there’s one las thing and Aus I was listening to it. I wrote into my notes in giant letters, and I think this is really big- is that immediately you felt likcover up to Victoria, we kind of addressed at Hous. She called the FBI within a couple of hours, but she was immediately sensing to cover up Yeh and her moment of crisis. She felt that this was a coverep or something of the sort. You know her, she didn’t know who to trust. She didn’t know who to go to her husband’s gone. She doesn’t know about the office as far as how much blood is there or you know, and then now she’s getting rumors Yei’m. Sorry, let me interrupt hat. This is also before they had the office repainted within a day or two. This is before the body was found in the really strange, conflicting reports between the sheriff’s apartment and the autopisy. This is right on the ground. The first few minutes, she’s already sensing cover up and she’s, going to get a whole lot more reasons to believe that there ‘s a cover up in the coming days and months after this isn’tyeah. You know put yourself in

victorious situation. Your spouse is gone. You you’ve only known this for two hours and you begin to refuse to sign things from the department because something doesn’t add up, not because you don’t want your husband back, but because something’s not adding up anymore, like it’s, it’s not making sense and that people that were your friends are not being there for you Um. You know and- and you know the day just gets crazyr I couldn’t. When we were doing this interview, I couldn’t believe we were still on the same day. I thought. Oh, my Gosh Ie me a long interview it’s a big day and it turned out to be a long interview, but guys thank o joining us. We’re going to be bringing you more of the Victoria macron interview, we’re going to be bringing you more of the interview with her investigator but in between now and when the next episode comes out again, it’s important for you to share this interview to like it on whatever social media APP that you’re using to listen to it or paccast AP. And let’s just get this out. There put the pressure back on the investigators from the law enforcement and from statewide everything put the pressure back on those people that are responsible for doing their job force them to do their job and let’s try to find briant’s killers.

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